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Ex-Cons Explain What Their Time in Prison Was Really Like

Ex-Cons Explain What Their Time in Prison Was Really Like
Photo by Emiliano Bar on Unsplash

Let's face it, jail is the last place you would want to wind up.

Former convicts who have been sentenced to time in prison can vouch for the harrowing stories of violence that are often depicted on film and TV.


But in addition to the savage attacks and violence that are commonplace while in the slammer, ex-cons could also recall being tormented by extreme boredom and eating inadequate portions of bland food.

Canned fruit, cream of wheat, and unsweetened grits, anyone? Yum.

The following former inmates described what life was like during their time in confinement, and shared their stories when Redditor Between3N20Karakters asked:

"For those of you who have been to prison/jail what is it like?"

Their unnerving recollections will remind you that being on the straight and narrow will always be better than the alternative.

The Friendly Murderer

"In prison in Colorado I was roomed with a guy who killed his wife and her lover and split his own throat yet he was a really nice person to me. There are gangs of every variety and it was hard."

BlaZenDaBomb

Endless Reading

"24 days in county in Florida. I read 27 books while I was there. I didn't get my first book till my third day. It's an indescribable level of boredom. I only stopped reading when I could no longer find a comfortable position for myself. I also wrote about 40 pages of notes/diary entries, which is something I had never done before."

wildbillesq

Poop Shy

"I'll just tell one story. I went in thinking I would be out in no time. I was in a cell block with about 12 other guys. There was a common area and individual cells. I was really shy about pooping in front of others, so I held it. For like 2 days. On the second or third day I couldn't hold it. So I waited until I thought everyone else was distracted in the common, went quietly to my cell, shut the door as much as I could without latching it, and sat down."

"About 5 seconds later the door comes blowing open, and in walk every single person in my cell block. They all formed a semi circle around me, arms folded, demanding I finish my sh*t while they watch. So there I sat, pooping, in front of 12 strangers. It was horrible. But I have literally no poop shyness any more. So silver lining I guess."

level1biscuit

The Farm Pit

"It's not quite 'traditional' jail and doesn't last quite as long, but I found it far far worse..."

"I was arrested back in the mid 80s in my youth, living in the former soviet union in eartern europe, and served 8 hours in the 'Farm Pit.' Basically just a concrete pit at a factory farm that's empty when you go in, but then they shovel in pig sh*t as the pigs produce it..."

"I thought I was getting off light with a one-day punishment...but honestly it's been almost 35 years and I'm still a wee bit traumatized from it and still feel some anxiety when I see a pig farm, even in a movie. I never knew anything could smell or feel THAT bad."

slimepferd

The Ignored Prisoner

"50 days in Macomb County Jail. Mt. Clemens, MI."

"Cold. Boring. Smells like bleach and feet. The worst part was hearing a guy screaming for the deputies because his chest hurt. They ignored him. He had a heart attack, and died a few feet from me."

yojohnnya

The Detailed Account of Life Behind Bars

"I've had multiple stays at county jails in TX. Every minute of it sucks. Having your freedom stripped from you is a terrible experience, even if you know you won't be in long."

"I visited my dad in prison when I was a kid and one thing that stuck with me from then to the time that I went to jail, was the smell. All jails/prisons seem to have the same funky a** BO/mildew smell."

"In county jail the food is horrible and they give you just enough nutrients to survive. People think that everyone works out but it's hard to have energy or build muscle with the amount of food they give you. You have to be able to make commissary to get more food.

"'Commissary is very necessary'. In county it can be prohibitively expensive for a lot people, packs of ramen go for like $1/each. In state prison, they feed you more and commissary is cheaper. You can also get items not in county jail like sodas and ice cream."

"Depending on where you're at you will most likely be grouped with offenders who have done similar level crimes. Meaning non-violent housed with non-violent offenders and vise versa. There are times this isn't true. Even though I was in on a non-violent driving offense, I was housed with people on trial for armed robbery, murder, attempted murder. I'm not sure why I was put in that tank, I don't have any history of violence. Maybe it's the way I look, idk. One of the murderers was actually a really nice guy (to me anyways) and I got along with him well. We discussed philosophy and played chess everyday."

"Being sick in jail is terrible. Medical care is highly lacking. If you're sick they give you a couple Advil per day and that's it."

"Mental illnesses are rampant. Some people are on their meds and stable, others have conditions that are undiagnosed and untreated but clearly off their rocker."

"Pathological liars are everywhere."

"Everyone is innocent. Everyone is a big time drug dealer. Everyone is a hard as f'k gangster. You get really tired of hearing people talk about all the money and sh*t they have out in the world but they're asking you for a shot of coffee because they don't have money on their books."

"Coffee, stamps and ramen works like currency. You can buy different things/services from other inmates. I used to draw, fill out paperwork, write letters and file motions for other dudes to help pass the time."

"Daytime TV is the most obnoxious sh*t ever and you will gain a new found hatred for it in jail. Dudes will be gathered around the tv watching The View arguing over the dumbest sh*t."

"In the showers, sandals are required. If you go barefoot in the shower you will end up with a f'ked up foot infection. I once saw a dude coming off heroin lay down on the floor in the shower. I wanted to puke. There's years of caked on germs on those shower floors and walls."


"Jailhouse snitches and thieves are hated. If you get caught stealing, you better hope you can fight because you will get f'ked up on sight over a couple packs of noodles."

"There's probably more but those are the main things I think people don't realize about jail."

mangolimon3

Never Admit to Being Suicidal

"Try to sleep as much as possible, cuz it's not pleasant to be awake in a room filled with cots and a variety of random strangers, some of whom are cool while others are scary. There's a hierarchy so if ur lucky u will locate and secure a buddy near ur cot who offers to show u the ropes and let's u use her shampoo and wants to play cards. Do not tell the intake nurse the truth if she asks u if u have ever been suicidal, cuz I was long ago, and since I answered honestly i was sent to solitary confinement where I had to be buck naked with all lights on 24 hrs a day and no blankets, only paper towel thing and camera on u with creepy perverted guard watching u all night long"

BonaFideHoe

Narrowly Escaping Death

"My a brother was in prison, he was almost beaten to death by guards. He still won't talk about it and it's been over 20yrs."

Satanfan

Keep Your Head Down

"Been in a number of US jails. Food quality varies, but generally you'll be hungry from dinner (~6pm) till breakfast (6am). Usually you can get some commissary items by trading desserts or playing poker (if you're good at it). Most of my time is spent sleeping and reading books, some people prefer TV and you often don't get to choose what's on. I've generally been in minimum security so haven't seen many fights, but I've been on cell blocks where someone's freaking out for over an hour, and this inevitably happens around midnight when you're trying to sleep. Mostly I've learned to keep my head down and do as the officers say."

"The beds suck, the food sucks, and you're inside at least 23 hours a day. 3/10 would not recommend."

Absurdthinker

Solitary Confinement

"8 days in solitary confinement was one of the worst experiences of my life. 23 hours in a cell one hour out to walk the pod and shower. Lights on for 16 out for 8. No blanket no books, noting that could possibly be put in the toilet to clog it and flood the cell to get out for a little while (apparently that was a problem). I begged for a bible (atheist) or anything to keep my mind occupied and was refused. 1/10 would not recommend."

wrngwycorrigan

Highlights Include LSD

"The longest I have ever done was 90 days in a very small jail. Boring 90 days at most we had like 17 inmates including DOC and females. I played alot of spades. Watched alot of stupid things on tv ( real housewives holy f'k). We usually had cigarettes smuggled in from the road crew so that was cool. My cellmate was in a PC programme and he was on trial for murder. The dude was annoying as f'k. The highlights of my sentence include tripping in LSD for the first time ever, and burning books in the shower cause it eas winter and it was f'king cold."

StereotypicalTrash

Bored Burglar

"Very small town jail for a weekend stay at 18 yrs old. Booorriiinnngggg. Eat. Sleep. Get hassled from Barney Fife. They left the cel door open during the day. We had to mop the floor (hell maybe we volunteered), got to check out the library in the jail....no blanket party, no tats."

"Pretty easy time all told. Which I guess makes up for being arrested for 2nd degree Burglary for stealing a mattress out of a unoccupied TENT at a girl scout camp in the mountains. In all fairness a tent is considered a dwelling, so yeah, I was a burgler."

"Yeup, don't do the crime if you don't want the time or whatever."

Bcruz75

Family Support

"Honestly it's not too bad by itself. We were all kind of like a family there. The worst part for me was just how uninformed I was. I had no idea how long I was going to be there and no idea what was going to happen to my house and job. Luckily it all worked out thanks to my friends and family. I feel truly bad for people who dont have people to look out for them. I just couldn't imagine."

noodles_the_food

Backed Up For Six Days

"I was in Appomattox jail for 6 days. The arrival process is pretty humiliating. They strip you, make you bend over cough, squat and cough, than shower while watching. Their policy is first 24 hours confined. I was lucky and had a pretty nice roommate. In the cell the toilet is annoyingly close to the bunk bed. There were two common shower areas in the main area walkway. The food sucked. Mostly it's just so damn boring. TVs were on when we could go to the common area but you could barely hear them. We got sent to our rooms for every little thing like getting too loud. One fight broke out but mostly things were chill. I swear somehow I did not poop for the entire time....My body was like .nope. Worst part is they messed up my sentence because of sloppy handwriting. I was supposed to only be held a day. I wouldn't have even had to change my clothes just stay in the courthouse holding cell. I later went to court over it and had my fines and community service dropped."

TheCUTESTofB0RG

The Most Embarrassing Mistakes Ever Made In History

Reddit user UltraAirWolf asked: 'Who made the stupidest and most embarrassing mistake in history?'

ancient ruins
Andreas Brunn on Unsplash

Mistakes happen, but when the world is watching, those mistakes are magnified.

When those mistakes have a major impact, those minor mistakes become major.

Keep reading... Show less
Person brushing with charcoal toothpaste
Photo by Chris Slupski on Unsplash

When it comes to love, we've all overlooked something in a partner that we normally would not excuse, because that person meant so much to us.

But when the love wanes and the relationship ends, we realize looking back just how bad some of the things we overlooked actually were.

Already cringing, Redditor MustangSallie asked:

"What is the grossest hygiene issue you overlooked in an ex?"

Poor Dental Hygiene

"They said, 'My tooth keeps chipping and growing back.'"

"Dawg, that’s tartar."

- Alternative_Chip_280

What Teeth-Brushing Habit?

"He said, 'I don't like to brush my teeth because it makes my gums bleed,' as in therefore it's not good for him."

- feyceless

"I dated someone who never brushed his teeth because he didn't like the tastes of minty toothpaste, as if other flavors didn't exist."

- Princess_Jade1974

Used Tampons

"How’s this, happened with my high school girlfriend, at 17."

"The bottom drawer of the bathroom was filled to the brim with used tampons, and when I discovered this and asked why the bin or even just a sealable bag wasn’t an appropriate option, she sheepishly said she liked the smell of them."

"I tapped out."

- Metaphysical-Alchemy

Sniffly Nose

"I would frequently hear my ex blowing his nose at night in bed. He always said it was into a t-shirt. I thought that was gross but whatever."

"Then when I moved out, I discovered he was actually blowing it into his hands and wiping it onto the back of the fabric headboard of my bed! His side was covered in so much disgusting crusty snot."

"I left it there. F**k trying to clean that!"

- bilby_mum

Simply... Unclean

"I could smell my ex's a**. I had to bring it up more than once. That was one of many things. I don't know why I put up with that s??t. All I can think of is that I had low self-worth."

- rubberloves

"Oh God, same. My first proper boyfriend had a constant stink of s**t. I thought I was going crazy because how could someone who just showered smell like poo?"

"Anyway, when we broke up, the first thing my sister said was that she was so glad I was no longer dating S**t Man. Cannot believe I dated that."

- rabbitluckj

Nowhere in the Wedding Vows

"Oh hi. This is going to be cathartic."

"My ex had a toenail fungus so bad that his super long and disgusting crust-mobile toe literally cut holes in multiple fitted sheets."

"Our toilet paper rolls would get poop on them. Because ye olde ex somehow got a poopy hand EVERY SINGLE TIME and then transferred a little bit of it to the roll. Was he doing the first pass with a bare hand? I have no idea."

"Once he didn’t change his clothes for a week, then he took a shower AND ALMOST PUT THE SAME UNDERWEAR BACK ON. I had to convince him to put on clean undies."

"Sat on the bed right after a shower, naked. Stood up, and a tire track was on the bed. HE HAD JUST SHOWERED. THIS HAPPENED MULTIPLE TIMES."

"Fuzzy teeth."

"Anyway, we’re divorcing now."

"All of this started after we got married, and then the pandemic basically turned him into a feral animal. I did not consent to marriage with this level of hygiene."

- psnugbottybug

Disgusting to the Family

"Well, not on purpose, but when we broke up, my family told me he smelled horrible. (I have zero sense of smell, so I had no clue)."

- AtomicDreamWeaver

A Reality Check

"I was seeing a guy but he would never invite me over to his bedroom, and one night his friend dragged me to the room and was like, 'LOOK, at THIS. You want THIS? This is nice?! It’s disgusting! He’s hiding THIS! I’m trying to help you!'"

"He was flipping through trash to show me how bad it was. Food containers everywhere, trash all over the floor and I’m pretty sure suspect-looking piss bottles?"

"I ended up dating him for a year, and cleaned/gutted his room several times, but it was just too much."

- Zoinks3324

"I can just imagine how hard it was for that friend to be like, 'I love my buddy, but please do not date him.'"

- Camimo626

Absolutely Unlivable

"They peed the bed. Every night. I would sleep so close to the edge of the bed to avoid it, and my ex always reeked of piss, even after washing the blankets."

- glusmoker69

Poor Cleaning Habits

"He showered maybe twice a week and changed his underpants even less often. In the summer, I could smell his a** crack."

"His job was dishes and he'd leave them for weeks if I didn't end up doing them for him."

"The only thing I really wouldn't do was laundry because we had a creeper downstairs I wasn't comfortable around. So sometimes even I ran out of underwear."

"I left him almost two years ago and he went back to living in squalor. His place is all carpet and he told me recently he vacuumed it once since I left and that was just because the unit was being inspected."

- Pour_Me_Another_

What Shower Habit?

"She showered once a week, sometimes longer, and was very usual for her to go days on end without showering, didn’t change her panties or bras for weeks, either."

- DUKEPLANTER

Worrying For Them

"Refused to floss. She claimed the space between her teeth was too tight, so I introduced her to the Glide series from Oral B; but she still refused. I suggested a water pik since there was no actual flossing involved, and she refused again."

"Some nights her breath was really really bad, to the point where I let her know because I was worried for her health. She took it as an insult and tried to say I was just being a d**k."

"I loved the relationship, but we eventually broke up. The flossing wasn't a factor in this, but it's certainly something that I eventually overlooked."

- bassman2112

Taking Care of Them

"His toothbrush was moldy. I don’t think he ever thoroughly rinsed it off after brushing He still used it, and called me a nag for mentioning it was probably unsanitary."

"So I got him an expensive electric one. It got moldy. So I took on replacing the brush heads for him myself every couple of weeks."

"He wondered why I barely wanted to have sex. Who wants to f**k someone they’re raising?"

- powands

An Unwelcoming Home

"He did not clean his house at all. I mean there was trash everywhere, no clean dishes, no spot was clear on countertops, and his bedroom was so cluttered, there was only a trail clear to the bed."

- wetpeachyangel

So Necessary

"He refused to wear deodorant because it was 'feminine' and 'feels weird.'"

"Mofo, you stink. Wear it."

- GodHatesUsAll

This conversation gave us the creepy crawlies and left us in need of a nice spa treatment.

Everyone could use a healthier dose of self-worth and self-respect, but that seems especially true for these Redditors who actually thought they had to put up with this.

Woman with face to palm
Jussara Paulo/Unsplash

Kids say the cutest things, don't they?

Their unfiltered observations about life's many mysteries can be downright hilarious and serve as reminders of their pure innocence.

But it's less forgivable when adults make naive comments because, well, shouldn't they know better?

That's not always the case, however.

Curious to hear ridiculous examples of the things grown people say, Redditor Automatic_Hedgehog71 asked:

"What is the silliest statement you have ever heard someone make?"

Some people should really think twice before opening their mouth.

Work Of Art

"'How did they get the paint all the way up the sides?' -Middle-aged woman touring the Meteor Crater in AZ."

“'That’s not paint, those are the actual colors of the rock' -Her husband, giving her a long stare and walking away."

– ghostbungalow

For Trial And Error

"I had a boss say 'oh you don’t want kids, you should just have one to try it out.'"

"Really, and what happens if I find out that I truly don’t want kids? Can we just put it back where it came from?"

– tyintegra

Confused Soldier

"I worked at a place that gave a military discount."

"Family (mom, dad, adult son, adult daughter) walked in. Dad was reading the prices and pointed out to the son that he could get a discount!"

"This kid takes the sign, reads it, and says, as God is my witness:"

"I'm not in the military. I'm in the Army."

– JustMeerkats

To Live Or Let Die

"Someone once told me that paramedics/nurses/doctors are not allowed to do CPR on someone they know because it’s 'a conflict of interest.'”

– corviknight2259

It's a wonder how some people manage to live in the real world.

Know Your Audience When Using Big Words

"Sat down to eat with a friend. I said 'I'm famished' she looked at me, laughed and LOUDLY she said to me 'I swear you make up words sometimes.'"

– NotBadSinger514

"Oh man people say this to me all the time! Why did I read books and learn so many words, when no one understands them, and I really didn't think they were so pretentious, words like Famished."

– Person_Letter_629

Not Icarus

"A friend of mine said she got more tanned when riding her bike than she did when walking because on her bike, she was 'closer to the sun.'"

– Five_Star_Amenities

"This just reminded me of a time I was out on a boat with a big group of people and one of them said 'I’m so glad it’s windy, I won’t get sunburned' they thought the wind would push the light away from their skin. I was the only one to say it definitely doesn’t work like that and I could tell they thought I was wrong."

– Thbbbt_Thbbbt

The Symptoms Indicate Otherwise

"Earlier today I offered a cough drop upon my flight’s landing to the lady wet coughing right behind me the whole flight."

'Oh, no thanks, I’m not sick. I just went to Oregon and have felt awful the whole time since.'

"Okay…so…sick"

– ACaparzo

Completely Lost

"A friend once said she couldn't take Southwest Airlines because she was flying east to Florida."

– ProudCatLadyxo

"How do they get the planes back? Do they repaint them as Northeast? Or do they just push them?"

– ch4m3le0n

"They just keep flying south until they come back around."

– frymeyourpoop

A Silly Sports Spectator Said

"I was at a baseball game in Cincinnati and the teenage girl behind turned to her friend and said 'this is so cool, it's almost like we're watching it live.' I think about that a lot."

"EDIT: based on the look of the girls and their other conversations this was no joke, there was no laughing either. Don't remember the exact year but flip phones were the most common cell phone and we had seats in the outfield so she didn't appear to be watching the game thru her phone. This also wasn't the first time that day where I heard them say something and I stopped what I was doing and stared straight into space, just the most memorable. They seemed like nice enough girls, no malicious or rude conversations, it just appeared like they lacked some basic intelligence for some relatively simple concepts."

– Michael_With_An_M

You can't be difficult and clueless at the same time, can you?

Observe exhibits A, B, & C.

Unpalatable Texture

"A woman tried to send back a dish. She didn’t understand the components of it and tried to tell me that she couldn’t eat it because she was allergic to crunchy. Like yeah the texture. Not the ingredient that we had made crunchy."

– BuckleupBirds

"LMAO. Makes me feel better about the guy who asked a friend (server) for ‘Mushroom risotto, but without the rice’."

– Mavises

I'll Have The Pie And Ice Cream With A Side Of Ice Cream

"Had an older family member that back in the day went to a diner and ordered the 'pie a la mode' from the menu. He then proceeded to ask the waitress if they could put a little ice cream on top of that. : )"

– Fluffing_Satan

My husband and I were walking around a gift shop in Solvang, CA, and marveling at some of the various tchotchkes.

One of them was a MOVA globe.

MOVA globes are usually about the size of a softball held up by three small supports, and they rotate without the use of electrical wires or batteries.

Instead, they're powered by the combination of solar cells and torque from the earth's magnetic field. We didn't know this at the time, however.

When a worker nearby saw us being mesmerized by the shelf of spinning globes, he commented, "Cool, right?"

And I replied, "Yeah, how does it work?"

The dude gave a sly smile and said:

"It's an optical delusion."

Or illusion...

View of two high rise buildings.
Photo by Robert Stump on Unsplash

We all have various brands and businesses we tend to prefer over others.

Sometimes, we might not patronize these businesses because they have a superior product, but because they might seem more trustworthy than their competitors.

Indeed, some people have had such terrible experiences with companies, even some esteemed corporations, that they went running from them straight into the arms of one of their rivals.

Vowing that they would never, ever spend money on this company ever again.

Redditor SignificantClick8284 was eager to hear which companies people have zero trust in, leading them to ask:

"What company will you never trust again?"

Their Poor Communication Is Kind Of Ironic...

"Comcast."

"Their agents will lie to your face and act like you're in the wrong when called out."- bigdammit

customer service call center GIF Giphy

Not A Place To Spend Or Save Your Money...

"Ashley Furniture."

"Joke of a company."

"Bank of America - also scum."- KrankOverman

Better Question, What Question Will You EVER Trust Again...

"Unfurls paper scroll that stretches to the floor and rolls out the door."

"Ahem."- djb2589

"I see no reason to trust any company."- lycos94

When The Conformation Email Is Moot...

"Booking.com."

"I 'booked' through them just to find out that the hotel had no record of my reservation."

"Then I spent an hour in the lobby trying to get them on the phone, just to find out the price wouldn’t be honored and have them try to sell me another nearby hotel room."

"Nightmare."- DuncanAerilious

"Oh, oh The Well's Fargo Wagon Is A Comin'..."

"Wells Fargo."- clubberlang2005

"Yup."

"I was one of the WF customers who suddenly had 3 mystery WF accounts under my name."

"This was prior to the court case so I went in to my branch to ask WTF."

"The manager said the guy who set up those accounts was the same guy that setup my original 2 accounts - a checking and savings account."

"That a-hole tried to make it sound like he was doing me a favor by setting up all these accounts."

"Making it worse he says I need to login to my account in order for him to remove the other 3 accounts."

"He hands me that password box, I enter my password and he says 'that's an easy one to remember'."

"Is that your favorite band?'"

"After he said that I asked for the branch manager and told him what just happened and that I was closing all of my accounts'."- thescreamingstone

kate mckinnon snl GIF by Saturday Night Live Giphy

"That's All Folks!"

"ACME."

"Every f8cking thing."

"From anvils to bat suits to zoot suits always FAIL."- alien_survivor

Not Equipped For The Digital Age

"HP."

"Thier printers (large and small format) are all complete trash that require constant upkeep."- Bluegrass_Barbarian

Pictures And Fine Print Can Be Misleading...

"Airbnb."- pkovach64

"My wife and I were drinking and got pretty drunk at an Airbnb and without letting us know the hosts sent a bunch of people to the property to refill the propane and other stuff."

"They came into the house while we were drunk and half-naked and were catcalling my wife in front of me."

"This was a pretty big and well-known group operating in Tennesee."

"From what we found out this is extremely common."- Huge-Plantain-8418

Giveaway GIF by AppSumo Giphy

Analog Has Its Benefits...

"EA."- bullet312

"I lost all my sims sh*t because I hadn't logged in for more than 6 months."

"EA told me to reset my password so that they could restore my account."

"They kept saying the link was in my email, but it never came."

"Kept calling to try to get the issue fixed over a few weeks, then I realized they were just d*cking me around."

"F*ck EA."- MotherOfDogs1872

And To Think They're Supposed To Help You...

"Any insurance company."

"Especially health and homeowners."- carolizzy81

FalsE Advertising

"Nabisco."

"They took double stuffed Oreos, reduced the amount of cream to the same as the regular Oreos, and are still selling them as double stuffed, and are charging double stuffed prices!"

"The betrayal is unforgivable."- It_Wasnt_Me79

oreo GIF Giphy

As If Taxes Aren't Annoying Enough...

"Jackson Hewitt!"

"Had our taxes done a while back, and the tax preparer asked if we wanted the $200 cash advance."

"We did not."

"She then proceeded to change our information and use hers to get the temporary card with the advance."

'She then used an ATM to withdraw cash."

"She was arrested, but getting a refund was like pulling teeth from a hen."

'They didn't believe that it happened even though we had the paperwork with the tax preparer's information on it."

"It was a frigging nightmare!"

"Oh, I almost forgot she added me to the return and said I was the sister instead of the mom, so we ended up owing $1500 on top of the bullsh*t from the tax preparer."

"I do our taxes now."- RoguePhoenix259

People like to know when they're spending money that it's going somewhere they can trust.

Especially if their money is going somewhere that is supposed to keep their money safe, to begin with...